OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

Sub-forum to lay a basic framework for future expansion and/or modifications to OXT
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OpenXTalkPaul
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OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

I just want to be clear that my aim IS NOT simply to maintain what was abandoned by LiveCode Ltd., although I would say that project is the most complete XTalk implementation currently available to the community. I am looking to help keep any and all open-source xTalk interpreters publicly available in as many ways as possible. It's about the xTalk language!

LC <> xTalk! Me thinks y'all's gots the Stockholm Syndrome because there really has only been one major source of active xTalk development for the past 10-12 years or so, and so there's been somewhat of a captive audience situation there I think. But in my opinion, it's been the LC way or the highway for far too long. So I'm going to keep looking for, and experimenting with, other xTalk interpreters right along with the work on the LCC based OXT Engines.

I've played around a bit in the recent past with GraalVM, which is based on (Java) OpenJDK, and so thinking about this, as a quick Proof-of-concept test this morning I compiled a executable of OpenXION as a 'Native' image, which means it runs without there being a JavaVM on installed in the OS. It works just fine, even speak and play 'sentence' commands work. If OpenXION can be used with GraalVM's Truffle API then xTalk would have some parity with the likes of Kotlin or Python in that VM, and possibly enable polyglot programing beyond the 'do tMyScript as [scriptingLanguage]' syntax. And OpenXION has syntax for constructing OOP Objects, which would be very handy for creating GUIs and API objects.
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richmond62
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Re: OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

Post by richmond62 »

Me thinks y'all's gots the Stockholm Syndrome
Where I come from we do not feel the need to use 'y'all' as the second person plural because our
second person singular is 'thou'.

I spent 5 weeks in Stockholm in February-March about 36 years ago; and at that time of year I would
have exchanged it for any syndrome available: a richt driech toun it was too. And, to be entirely
honest, all the Swedes I met seemed a richt dour lot: let's be generous and put it down to the
time of year.

My name is NOT Demis Roussos:

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/19/worl ... -says.html

No, I don't think anyone is suffering from Stockholm syndrome (and quite a few people hereabouts
might find that suggestion insulting), but they might be suffering from a far, far simpler condition; that,
until there is something that is really obviously superior, they would rather stick with something that closely resembles
what they are used to rather than have to make several incremental adjustments.

And I see that 'condition' as no condition at all; merely that, in the midst of on-going production / work/ development
of highly complex software, the last thing they really want to do is devote quite some time to learning all sorts of new
stuff and a new interface.

Imagine, if you will, ploughing a large field, pulling the plough behind a 1940 Fordson tractor (2 gears); when, halfway round
the field that old tractor is suddenly exchanged for a 1990 'monster' with 10 gears (with a potential of 20 positions owing to
splitters), onboard monitoring of this, that and the next thing. Well, for starters, your furrows would be 'all agley' and out
of kilter.
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OpenXTalkPaul
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Re: OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

richmond62 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:59 pm
Me thinks y'all's gots the Stockholm Syndrome
Where I come from we do not feel the need to use 'y'all' as the second person plural because our
second person singular is 'thou'.

I spent 5 weeks in Stockholm in February-March about 36 years ago; and at that time of year I would
have exchanged it for any syndrome available: a richt driech toun it was too. And, to be entirely
honest, all the Swedes I met seemed a richt dour lot: let's be generous and put it down to the
time of year.

My name is NOT Demis Roussos:

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/19/worl ... -says.html

No, I don't think anyone is suffering from Stockholm syndrome (and quite a few people hereabouts
might find that suggestion insulting), but they might be suffering from a far, far simpler condition; that,
until there is something that is really obviously superior, they would rather stick with something that closely resembles
what they are used to rather than have to make several incremental adjustments.

And I see that 'condition' as no condition at all; merely that, in the midst of on-going production / work/ development
of highly complex software, the last thing they really want to do is devote quite some time to learning all sorts of new
stuff and a new interface.

Imagine, if you will, ploughing a large field, pulling the plough behind a 1940 Fordson tractor (2 gears); when, halfway round
the field that old tractor is suddenly exchanged for a 1990 'monster' with 10 gears (with a potential of 20 positions owing to
splitters), onboard monitoring of this, that and the next thing. Well, for starters, your furrows would be 'all agley' and out
of kilter.
I don't mean to offend (and I was in a goofy mood yesterday, I also I know people who talk like that)
I just meant that there has been largely a captive audience, there hasn't really been any feature filled / (fairly) stable alternatives in the xTalk sphere for more then a decade, and so if you want to code with xTalk you've had one choice, basically a captive to that one vendor. That people generally like coding with it I think is ( at least partially) inherent to xTalk. I'm not saying that's anyone's fault, it's just the way it's been.

I think you'll have to learn something new any way, a new interface, a new API, new syntax, how to target a new device, or whatever, coding is constantly evolving. But I'm not talking about anything new here, I'm still talking about xTalk, just alternatives to current xTalk interpreter engine(s) from LC CE. Honestly it's not a big difference to go translate from LCScript to OpenXION, (or lesser so) HyperTalk, etc. That's what landed me here to begin with.
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richmond62
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Re: OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

Post by richmond62 »

Well the Supercard people have obviously chosen to die by sitting tight and doing nothing with an xTalk offering that can only work and produce standalones for 5 versions back of MacOS: nix for 64-bit MacOS . . .

. . . rather a waste of previous work.

While we may want to blame LiveCode for lots of things, it would be hardly fair to say it was their fault that there are no vaguely competitive also-rans.

Of course a lot of the things we may want to blame LiveCode may come down to the fact that there has been no stimulating competition.
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Re: OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

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Come to think of things, I wonder if Supercard (as their revenue stream may have nearly dried up) might not consider releasing their stuff under some sort of open licence?
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Re: OPENXTalk is NOT the same as the Open-Source LCC

Post by OpenXTalkPaul »

richmond62 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:43 pm Well the Supercard people have obviously chosen to die by sitting tight and doing nothing with an xTalk offering that can only work and produce standalones for 5 versions back of MacOS: nix for 64-bit MacOS . . .

. . . rather a waste of previous work.

While we may want to blame LiveCode for lots of things, it would be hardly fair to say it was their fault that there are no vaguely competitive also-rans.

Of course a lot of the things we may want to blame LiveCode may come down to the fact that there has been no stimulating competition.
Right, that's why I added that I was not saying it was their fault. And of course in the more broad category of general-purpose programming languages they have tons of heavy-weight competition.
Come to think of things, I wonder if Supercard (as their revenue stream may have nearly dried up) might not consider releasing their stuff under some sort of open licence?
Well if they did, I'm sure it would be very interesting to look at the source, but it would have lots of calls to Carbon APIs that would need to be replaced to use it natively on a modern macOS, and still more work to port it to other OS'es.
I wonder if any (I assume retiree) ex-SuperCard dev would be interested in helping with our thing here for kicks instead?
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