Gathered OXT IDE posts

[tperry2x]

Have you seen the "Winkler test", the HyperTalk compatibility test included with OpenXION? It's kind of crazy. HyperTalk was extremely forgiving and/or much more flexible than OXT engine interpreter.

You mean the one mentioned here?

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put empty into a
put "a b c" into item
put 1 into char
put 2 into word
if true then repeat with word char of item = char char to word of word char of char to word char to char of char char of word
        put a&&"HyperTalk is a bitch to parse
end repeat else beep

As noted on that forum, if an interpreter actually parsed that - then I think I'd throw the interpreter in the bin and start afresh. The script is so inaccurate and just plain wrong (using reserved words etc).
Even LCC/OXT won't parse it:

winkler.png (65.93 KiB) Viewed 34084 times

(and rightly so, in my opinion).

What does stand half-a-chance of working is:

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put "" into a
put a & " b c" into titem
put 0 into tCount
put the number of words of titem into tRpt
repeat tRpt
   add 1 to tCount
   put tCount & " HyperTalk is a bitch to parse, but it helps when the script is half-right!"
end repeat

winkler-test logical.oxtstack

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parsed-correct.png (43.08 KiB) Viewed 34082 times

Now, you could say I'm missing the point here: the script is supposed to be full of inaccuracies (as a way of kind of stress-testing an interpreter), but then it makes no sense to type incorrect script. With the live error checking that the LCC script editor introduced, there's a clearly defined order in which the interpreter works through things - (I can't make sense of the original "Winkler test" script as it doesn't read correctly to me: it breaks the interpreter in my head too!)

Anyway, on with testing.
Working fine in Edge on Windows 11 too:

win11-edge-test.png (95.87 KiB) Viewed 34025 times

Here we are in Chrome (MacOS), doing string combination and answer dialogs. All seems to be working.

Chrome-MacOS-Answer-and-strings.png (225.55 KiB) Viewed 33995 times

[OpenXTalkPaul]

Yeah that's the one. I do beleive that Winkler Test was meant to be confusing and a stress test for the interpreter for compaibility with HyperTalk's interpreter. But I think it also illustrates just how forgiving, perhaps overly forgiving, that the HyperTalk interpreter really was.
I do remember occasionally being completely baffled by simple typo mistake I'd make in a scripts as a result of HyperCard NOT flagging such things as using syntax keywords as variable names. However that lack of reserving keywords is the same mechanism that enables a scripter to create their own implementation of some built-in engine functionality, intercepting and overriding built in implementation. I would have stacks that had custom 'play' commands. So I have a certain fondness for that FEATURE.

Even in LC/OXT I always turned OFF 'strict compilation mode' which makes script interpreter slightly more forgiving.

In my opinion this should work, and it does in OXT, HC Sim

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Answer Hello -- No Quotes

If the parameter is a single word ("Hello"), it doesn't need to be quoted, if a variable named Hello does not exist then interpreter should treat the word as if it were a string literal, any other words following it should be assumed to be additional parameters if any are accepted. Answer Hello World -- would still throw an error for 'World' because it doesn't fit expected type for the second parameter of an 'Answer' command (unless World is the name of a variable in memory)

Answer Hello
or
Put Hello
Don not work with 'WebTalk' currently, you have to use quotes even for a single word.

I do understand the argument for not allowing that level of flexibility though. In fact that Winkler Test illustrates the argument against that very well.

[richmond62]

Henry Winkler?

[tperry2x]

Henry Winkler?

Haha, Hypercard senior engineer Dan Winkler

[richmond62]

Personally, while you may want the thing to be 'free', I can see no objection to soliciting donations

(I mean, how else are you going to buy a tatty brown sofa?)

err: strike that one (off-colour comments a speciality).

As I am sure you are aware I solicited donations to buy a 'new-fer-you' 27" iMac running MacOS 12 having done far less, and contributed far less to anything than you have done to OXT: I do not feel beholden, and nor should thee.

[tperry2x]

...I do not feel beholden, and nor should thee.

haha, you read that post then.
I was on a bit of a rant, and it wasn't directed at you. At multiple companies really, we all know of companies that have behaved that way.

This pdf tracks my current thinking and progress with it. Things may change, usually on my own whims, but I'm not closed off to ideas of course. It's just that it's easy to look down a to-do list and get a bit despondent.

documentation-113.pdf

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[richmond62]

Screenshot 2025-03-22 at 10.17.55.png (590.71 KiB) Viewed 13594 times

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It would be nice to "keep in sync".

[richmond62]

I have a stubborn father

Yes: but apples don't usually fall far from the tree: so, like it or not, I am quite glad that your father is stubborn as his son has obviously inherited that quality, and that quality has kept him going a lot longer after many another good person would have given up.

So: do me a favour: be grateful that (Yes, I know ageing parents can be a bit @#$%^&*):

1. You have a father.

2. He is the way he is.

I could give you a list as long as your arm about my late father's shortcomings, but I am also well aware that the vast majority of my strengths also come from him: I don't have a photograph of him sitting in my study just for the hell of it!
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Dad.jpg (22.69 KiB) Viewed 13255 times

[tperry2x]

Yes: but apples don't usually fall far from the tree...

This particular apple is quite a long way away from that tree at the moment. He's going to prove his own undoing, as he's not any better than he was when I called the ambulance for him. I'm not sure how much longer I'll have a dad for. Sad as that is, but he just will not let anyone help him. He lives over an hour and a half away, and his nearest neighbour is over 5 miles away. Not exactly anyone to step in and help him in an emergency. He's specifically chosen that life though, having ushered contact with 'society' and 'civilisation' over 30 years ago. He's said "not any society I want to be a part of". He's ring-fenced himself off in the middle of 7.5 acres of land. He also has a pathological fear of hospitals, which of course doesn't help. Not good for someone who has no sight in his right eye and 30% vision in the left one.

[richmond62]

Sorry: that got a little full-on.

"Now with genuine people personalities!"

We could go "all sterile and faceless" . . .

[richmond62]

You know how you are supposed to be able to use:

I'll assume that that 'You' was a 'You' and not a 'Thou'; but, notwithstanding:

NO I didn't (or if I did I forgot it donkey's years ago as not fit for purpose).

Certainly your idea seems good.

[richmond62]

Great: I'll have look tomorrow in my lunch break: but as it is 10 pm here in Bulgaria my priorities are:

1. A bath.

2. Watch the 1951 film of "Street Car Named Desire": https://archive.org/details/a-streetcar ... esire-1951

3. Carry on reading Andrew Lang's Arabian Nights. : https://archive.org/download/in.ernet.dli.2015.49561

I have my own copy of this from 1898 that I inherited from my father.

[richmond62]

Well, having "fucked up big" (to use the sort of cruddy, non-grammatical rubbish the teenagers in my school incorporate into their feeble efforts for me) with a slew of browsers in MacOS 10.7 recently . . .

It's also the same reason sites like github and mega don't load under old versions of safari now,

That does not surprise me in the slightest as Safari is, to coin a phrase; 'One of the whores from the Apple brothel.' and is ONLY put together to serve Apple's interests (c.f. Internet Explorer).

[tperry2x]

Well, that's certainly a colorful way of putting it. (Not something I can add in any documentation )
But yes, since Apple don't offer to support and patch old versions of Safari on their outdated OS versions, then alternative browsers which have been updated are called for. Of course, Apple want you to upgrade the OS, and when that's not possible - to buy new hardware. I've seen the lack of support in Safari sell countless Macs in the past, purely because nobody thinks to just change browser.

[richmond62]

I've seen the lack of support in Safari sell countless Macs in the past, purely because nobody thinks to just change browser.

Well, continuing the colourful languages: morons are morons.
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Absolutely one of my favourite films . . .

Unfortunately I am not a moron (which makes things awkward), nor rich (which also makes things awkward): so here I am enamoured of Macintosh computers and trying to use them without filling a hole in my backgarden with what 'Cookie' would term 'obviated Macs': so, all I can really say is 'Thank G-d for Open Source' and all who sail in her.

And Joel Grey may have sang "Money makes the world go round."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabaret_(1972_film)

The truth of the matter is "Moronic materialists make the world go round."

Let's give the Maya Tattva its due!

[richmond62]

In OXT 'KREATE' are you going to have a toolbar with objects, or is the whole thing going to run on a command line (messageBox)?

[richmond62]

Cripes: Back-to-the-future-on-steroids: Control-strip was introduced as far as I recall in MacOS 7.1 . . .

(I disliked it and disabled it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Strip

I remember when I upgraded from MacOS 7.0 to 7.1 seeing control strip, playing with it, and thinking 'No': all in 1993.

The last time I encountered Control strip was when I installed MacOS 9.2.1 on an iMac here in Bulgaria last year!
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That picture is slightly 'off' as my iMac is a later model that did, for many years run MacOS 10.4 with 'Classic' until I had experienced a 'Dark Night of the Soul' re MacOS 9 . . . which is a tarty way of saying I wanted a machine that did NOT rely on 'Classic' to run various Mac programs (which 'Classic' only made a classic cockup with rather than running them properly).

[tperry2x]

Cripes: Back-to-the-future-on-steroids: Control-strip was introduced as far as I recall in MacOS 7.1 . . .
(I disliked it and disabled it)

How do you feel about it now?
I mean - that's kind of what we've created in OXT with the drag-bar on the left and the icons across the top.

frompast.png (12.41 KiB) Viewed 14598 times

It's funny really, as this has gone full circle. I'm just re-reading the post here.
I still like the idea of sideways tool icons:


My criticisms with the "Create" interface still hold true, (that is even if "Create" looks the same as this now):


That criticism was:

This outlines why I won't be going along the same route.
There are clearly more tools available on the left than what can be shown.
So the user would have to scroll vertically up and down to find what they are after, rather than a single simple click.
Doesn't sound like a big deal, but as a usability study - this just slows anyone down having to hunt for a required button.

I still feel the same way, and it's another reason I dislike vertical tools palettes. (Not overly keen on fixed horizontal ones either, but it's the lesser of two evils). They need to be draggable in my opinion.

I haven't changed my mind on some things. On others I have.

I hope, Richmond, you've changed your mind somewhat?:

Whatever anyone wants to do hereabouts, as soon as internet-connexion dependence and in-browser interface comes in I am out of here faster than the proverbial bullet out of a gun.

This IDE will require to be in-browser (whether that's the browser of your choice / your daily-driver) or whether that's a Mac-look-alike.app on your desktop that loads it in a window (fake app - not a real app, but a "web app" that loads browser stuff in a wrapper) - it'll have to be one / combination of both of them.
BUT: won't require internet access. I'm determined of that. That's a red line I don't want to cross, I want this always to be available offline.

[tperry2x]

The short version though is that if someone wants to make a few mockups of how they see this looking, then please mention it now before I add it. I really don't want to be revisiting it and completely changing the layout.
That would be a huge help and would be very much appreciated.

[richmond62]

Well; for starters, please do NOT have MONSTER icons like that Create image does.

Please, also, make the icons similar to those in the current IDE.

"How do you feel about it now?"

Well, I am not a fan of 'drop-sideways' things, and feel that either:

1. Small floating palettes,

or

2. Drop-down palettes are preferable.

Please go back and have a look at the way GIMP does this again.